Discussion of feminism and feminist issues

 In article <1993Apr6.193757.4…@leland.Stanford.EDU> farth…@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
 >In article <1993Apr2.201849.17…@informix.com> infmx!hart…@uunet.UUCP (Robert Hartman) writes:
 >>In article <1pgln3$…@agate.berkeley.edu> cort…@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

 >>  … The fact is, though, that flowers do
 >>bloom …  And sometimes, I even go out of my way to stop and smell them,
 >>and tell them thank you for brightening my day.
 >
 >The problem I have here is that women aren’t flowers.  :)
 >And the fact that your analogy compares women to flowers
 >(objects) says something to me.

 I wasn’t aware that flowers were objects.  I thought that flowers were
 living beings with lives and agendas all their own.  The point of the
 analogy was that serendipity between living beings simply happens, and
 when it does, I am sometimes sufficiently moved by it to say something.

 If I were a woman, would you have a problem with my expressing myself
 when so moved?

 Also, the other point of the flower analogy is that there is absolutely
 nothing sexual (or sexist) about my appreciation of the beauty of a
 flower.  

 There is a difference between appreciating something and wanting to
 appropriate it.  My point is that within the traditional sexist culture
 there is little in the way of vocabulary to express this distinction.
 In order for a man to pay a woman a genuine compliment with no strings
 attached, he must preface it with a disclaimer.

 As a man, I find this rather demeaning.  Note that I see this as a
 problem with our culture and customs.  I certainly understand the
 predicament women are in when they are (and aren’t) bombarded by
 expressions of desire.  Again, this lack of a customary distinction
 between appreciation and desire confounds everyone.

 In short, I understand the predicament women are in.  Do feminist
 women understand the predicament _men_ are in?  This is what I’m
 trying to put across–that there is a predicament on the male side as
 well.

 It’s not just a case of men simply being arrogant pigs.  A lot of
 times, men act like they are.  But not all the time.  And sometimes,
 even when they act like that, it’s because that’s the only way they
 know how to try to communicate what they feel.  Hence my analogy about
 the little girl, who in complete innocence of the cultural millieu and
 consequent likely reaction, brings home a toad to show her
 (stereotypical) mother.

 Is that women’s problem?  No. Am I asking for indulgence?  No.  Am I
 asking for thoughtful guidance toward an appropriate custom that
 allows complimentary sentiments to be expressed without strings–so
 that we can all feel respected and safe?  Yes.  That is exactly what I
 am asking for.

 -r

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 In article <1993Apr6.193757.4…@leland.Stanford.EDU> farth…@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

 >To belabour the point, when you’re commenting on a woman,
 >you’re judging her.  And when you want to tell her your
 >judgment (that she looks nice), you’re assuming that your
 >judgment has value to her.  But why should it?

 And yet, I have feelings.  Sometimes I have feelings about other
 people.  I have a need and a right as a human being to express them,
 so long as I do so in an appropriate way.  However, in our culture
 there appears to be no appropriate way.  This is what I, as a man,
 find objectionable.  If there were an appropriate way for me to
 sometimes do so, it would be a simple matter for me to refrain at
 times when it was not appropriate.  In fact, I could construe my
 refraining as the appropriate way of doing so in those instances.  But
 is refraining really appropriate in every instance?  Really?  As it
 is, a disclaimer does seem to be approrpriate in every innocent
 instance.  I don’t necessarily like it, but I can live with that.

 A woman has a need and a right to go through her day without being
 intruded upon.  It would be much easier to strike a balance if we had
 a clear protocol for communicating when we’re available to listen, and
 when we’re not.

 As a man, I’m asking you for guidance.  I note with appreciation that
 I got an answer from another man.  But as a man, can he really know
 what’s going to feel appropriate to a woman?  He may be able to
 surmise based on the reactions he’s gotten.  But that’s not the same
 as getting it from the source.  So while I appreciated his attempt, I
 think it was slightly out of place.  That’s why I’m posing the
 question once again.

 >  … But this insistence on
 >judging and then communicating that judgment is what makes
 >it objectifying, imo.

 I see.  Yes, insistence is the keyword here.  I don’t think it makes
 sense to insist, or to interrupt a person who looks busy or
 preoccupied.  And when this insistence is communicated in the form of
 catcalls, blocked passage, demands to be heard, etc., it is always
 offensive.

 Perhaps the flowers really don’t want to be sniffed and fussed over
 either, but they generally don’t appear to be occupied otherwise.  ;^)

 Perhap this is the key.  If men assumed that women were busy people,
 and only approached or made gestures when a woman in some way that she
 might be available to chat, that might help.  But since the default
 cultural assumption is that women don’t have anything better to do
 than to field men’s input, having to do so must become quite onerous
 after a while.  One thing I think that men can easily do is to make a
 decision to alter this unstated assumption.

 Basically, women are busy people these days.  So let’s not bug them.

 -r

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 The current edition of NEA’s Higher Education Journal __Thought and Action__
 (Vol. VIII, #2, Winetr 1993) is devoted to Affirmative Action and Sexual
 Harassment in higher education.  Well worth looking at, readable.  (And, no
 I won’t summarize it; at the rate things are going I’ll be lucky to read it,
 alas!).
                                               Regards,   Chuck
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I suspect that you all feel that you’ve heard more than enough
about the oh-so-overexposed Camille Paglia, but here goes…
I’m writing a cultural studies paper about the way Paglia
manipulates her image in the popular media. I am also dealing
with how her self-identification as a maverick feminist relates
to her negative characterization and rejection of post-60′s
feminism.  If anyone out there has any thoughts on this
subject, please respond – I promise to footnote you.  Thanks.

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I am turning to this group in hopes of starting a discussion that
leads to a solution. I am adjunct faculty teaching part time. Last
term a woman student came to my office saying that she was unhappy
with her grade and felt she deserved a higher one. When I offered
to help her, she said that I misunderstood and she was going to get
the higher grade. She quoted the sexual harassment guide that sexual
harassment was whatever the victim felt was sexual harassment and
since she was standing in my office she was being "harassed." I told
her I would think about it and sought advice from senior faculty.
Their advice was give her the grade (She could have earned it because
she was very close.) because I would "be ruined and without a job."
I gave her the grade.

Students do need to be protected, but we must also make sure that grades
mean more than a successful case of blackmail. Using Internet I find my
student is/was not unique — others have "raised" grades, "given in," or
"felt blackmailed." Many male professors feel they have no choice but to
give in and live in fear of unhappy student who seeks revenge for a
bad grade using the system. They felt (I do too.) the system will assume
their guilt. Even if they are able to prove the charge false, their
reputations are gone.

What do you suggest? How can we protect the students without continuing
this open invitation? I am at a lose and thinking of leaving teaching.

Valentine C. Angell
Bemidji State University
V…@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU

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Here is a press release from Trial Lawyers for Public Justice.

 Women Athletes, TLP Win Sex Discrimination Ruling: Brown University
Ordered to Restore Two Women’s Varsity Teams
To: National Desk, Sports Writer
 Contact: Lynette Labinger, 401-421-9794, home 401-274-7507, or
          Ray Marcaccio, 401-831-8900, both of Trial Lawyers For
          Public Justice

   WASHINGTON, April 16 — The U.S. Court of Appeals
for the First Circuit in Boston has upheld a U.S. District Court
order requiring Brown University to immediately reinstate its women’s
gymnastics and volleyball teams to full varsity status. The ruling in
Cohen et al. v. Brown University is the first appeals court decision
in the nation applying Title IX to intercollegiate athletics.  Trial
Lawyers for Public Justice (TLPJ), is the national public interest
law firm representing the women athletes.
   "This ruling makes clear what we have said all along — if a
school wants to eliminate teams before women have their fair share of
opportunities to participate, they can only eliminiate men’s teams,"
said TLPJ Executive Director Arthur Bryant, co-counsel in the case.
   The class action, filed April, 1992, charged Brown with violating
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, the federal law that
prohibits sex discrimination by all educational institutions
receiving federal funds.  Brown terminated the two women’s teams as
university-funded sports in May 1991, allowing them to continue to
compete against varsity teams if they could raise their own funds for
uniforms, travel, coaches, and all other expenses.  They had also
been denied admission preferences for use in recruiting new members.
   "This is a major victory for women and the cause of equal rights,"
said TLPJ lead counsel Lynette Labinger of Providence’s Roney &
Labinger.  "Universities across America need to reevaluate their
programs quickly. Title IX is the law and it’s going to be enforced."
   Three similar Title IX appeals await decision.  Colorado State
University, Indiana University of Pennsylvania (IUP), and Colgate
University are asking federal appeals courts to overturn court orders
requiring them to reinstate or establish specific women’s varsity
teams.  Continuing its cutting-edge Title IX activities, TLPJ is
representing women athletes at IUP.
   In addition to Labinger and Bryant, TLPJ’s legal team included:
Ray Marcaccio of Blish & Cavanagh and Amato DeLuca of Mandell, DeLuca
& Schwartz in Providence; and Sandra Duggan of Philadelphia.  The
National Women’s Law Center, Women’s Sports Foundation, and National
Association for Girls and Women in Sports filed an amicus brief in
support of TLPJ’s appeal.
 -30-

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Lenore Levine writes…
>5) Me Too Feminism represents the male wing of the Moonbeam Feminist
>movement (at least, its proponents seem to be most active during
>the full of the moon). Me Too Feminism is *not* the concept that
>men have their own problems with stereotyped sex roles, or that
>many abuses typically inflicted on women (such as sexual harassment)
>are also carried out on men. No, these ideas make too much sense
>for Internet’s Lost Boys, the Me Too Feminists. What they are saying
>is quite different: that whatever problems women have, men have to the
>same degree, or more. And that, therefore, the feminist movement should
>be disbanded.

This is somewhat of a misstatement of the views of people who believe
that female problems have male equivalents, and vice versa.  To explain
briefly, while there are *some* radicals who would believe that because
"men have the same problems as women, feminism should be disbanded,"
these are quite a small minority.  To wit, I belong to at least four
groups which concern themselves with issues of gender equality (three
of which are active in Men’s Rights and Fathers’ Rights), and not one
member of any of these groups has suggested that feminism be disbanded.

In short, just because there are some "Lost Boys" on Internet, does not
mean that the majority (or even a plurality) of activists in the Men’s
Movement, would advocate disbanding feminism.  BTW, I do not believe that
some of the more "radical," rambling posters are even members of any
Men’s Movement groups, and in fact, I doubt it greatly.

Though I do not claim to be an official representative of the movement,
I felt the need to clear up this misconception.

>Me Too Feminists are quite inventive; but I would really like to
>see their equivalent for menstrual cramps.

Very funny…  Okay, I’ll bite…  "blue balls," perhaps?  :-)  (And I
am not referring to the disease called "chancroid," either)

—
Will Steeves, g…@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario – The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Solve Patriarchy, Install Peterarchy"
   - Peter J. Hanus, B.A. (UPEI)

 * SLMR 2.1a * All rising to a great place is by a winding stair.

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hello.
my name is brian and i am a freshman at calvin college in grand rapids, mich.
i am doing a term paper on feminism in regards to witchcraft in mikhail
bulgakov’s "the master and margarita."
the author has taken the viewpoint that women are submissive in black magic.
i am trying to get as much info as possible regarding women’s roles in
witchcraft, especially some pertaining to modern feminist thought.
(especially "goddess oriented" things)
can anyone on this newsgroup help? or is this too bizarre?

bdodg…@ursa.calvin.edu

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It seems so much of this topic of comments to strangers appears to be
one of intent & motive.  I would think that comments can be made for
all sorts of reasons.  I certainly don’t think that it is appropriate
to be rude to people. (Unless of course you know them )

So, given the following scenario, what is your reaction?  Where would *you*
draw the line that would make you reaction to the scenario change?

There is a woman that works at the help desk at the lobby of the building
that I work in.  I have seen her enough now that I would recognize her if I
saw her away from her usual work location. We have exchanged smiles several
times previously.  As I left work Friday, I passed by her desk.  She seemed
to be daydreaming, so as I passed by, I said "Have a nice long weekend."
(We’re "celebrating" Patriot’s Day on Monday). She looked at me and gave a
big smile and said, "Thank You."  I walked out of the building and left.

Now, was I out of line?  She was neither expecting, nor inviting me to say
anything.  

If I now decide to strike up a more lengthy conversation with her, am I
violating something?  Would your opinion of the situation change if she
were a he?
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